Topic: Shoutbox Ignores Permissions

[AngelinaBelle]

I am hearing that allowing the lowest post-group, but denying the next one OUGHT to work, so the reason for your problem is a mystery.
I think the solution to your problem is going to come in 2.3.4. Sinan has reworked the permission system quite a bit, to make it more powerful, yet still simple.

[[SiNaN]]

Can you post a screenshot of the shoutbox edit page for that shoutbox with the permission option not collapsed?

But yeah, it should be a lot easier to do this with 2.3.4.

[cloksin]

Sorry for the late reply, life's been a bit hectic as of late.  As such, I don't have the time to try an upgrade to SP 2.3.4, and even if I did I would really like to wait until it gets out of RC stage and into a final release.

That being said, attached are the screenshots you asked for.  There are multiple images because I have a ton of membergroups on my forum because of the way we implement the forum.  With that, the images titles Shoutbox(x).png are images of the shoutbox properties.  Images titled ShoutboxBlock(x).png are images of the block that contains the shoutbox.  As you can see, there are only three membergroups checked in each one, and both are set to the "One Membergroup" option.

[cloksin]

Since I'm limited to 5 attachments per post, here are the remaining screen shots.

[[SiNaN]]

From what I see, you only have two post count based groups: Unclassified and New Arrival. Every member on your forum will belong to one of these groups, regardless of their post count and primary group. (although you may not see a clear indication of that) (if they have less than 1 post, they will be in Unclassified group and if they have more than 1 post, they will be in New Arrival group) From what I see looking at the screenshots, you have allowed both of those post count based groups for the shoutbox and block. So every member on your forum will be able to see the shoutbox and its block.

If you tell me exactly when a member should not be able to see the shoutbox, I may suggest something different.

[cloksin]

Basically what I am trying to do is create a "deny" permission.  Everyone on my forum should be able to view and use the shoutbox, but occassionally we have someone who abuses that privilage.  When that happens, I want to be able to revoke their shoutbox privilages.

Also, the shoutbox is used by newly registered members who may not have made any posts as a place to meet the other members of our community, as well as ask for help with getting started on our forum. 

Newly registered members who have not made a post are in the unclassified group.  Once they've made their first post they are moved to the new arrival group (as you correctly stated, these are both post based groups).  After they have completed their first thread they are manually added to one of the other membergroups. 

The shoutbox group was created so as to give members that have been manually added to a group permissions to the shoutbox, and when the shoutbox privilage was revoked, they could be temporarily removed from the shoutbox group, without affecting any of the other privilages afforded them by membership in any other group.

From what you are saying, I am assuming that a third post based group would need to be created without shoutbox permissions, one that members would be in after being in unclassified and new arrival.  The problem I see with that is the initial thread that when started moves them into the new arrival group, has no specific length requirement before the member is manually added to another group.  This thread could be as short as 5 posts between two members, and as long as 1000 posts between two members.

If you have another way of creating a "deny" permission I'm all ears.

[[SiNaN]]

What I still couldn't understand is, in which condition I should not be able to see the shoutbox? Which membergroups I should (exactly) have that I'm not allowed to see the shoutbox?

[cloksin]

The only membergroups that SHOULD be able to see the shoutbox are "unclassified", "new arrival", and "shoutbox".  None of the other groups should be able to see the shoutbox.

[Eliana Tamerin]

Actually, I'd recommend you simply create a No Shoutbox group, and use the Deny permissions in SP 2.3.4 RC1 (a final should be out soon if you aren't comfortable with RC versions) to block the shoutbox from those you don't want to see it.

You can do it the way you say, but since everyone is a member of at least one of your two post groups, they'll be able to see the shoutbox regardless.

[[SiNaN]]

The only membergroups that SHOULD be able to see the shoutbox are "unclassified", "new arrival", and "shoutbox".  None of the other groups should be able to see the shoutbox.

But the problem is Unclassied and New Arrival groups include all the members on your group. See, suppose that you have 4 members:

member1 - 0 posts
member2 - 1 post
member3 - 5 posts
member4 - 50 posts

Unclassified group minimum post count - 0
New arrival group minimum post count - 1

Members in Unclassified group: member1
Members in New Arrival group: member2, member3, member4

Basically, every member on the forum must belong to a post based member group. So all your members belong to either Unclassified or New Arrival group. So all the members on your forum will be able to see the shoutbox. Even if they have a primary group set, they'll still belong a to a post count based group according to their post count.

There should be a certain criteria that decides when a member should not see the shoutbox. And I still don't see what it is in your case.

[cloksin]

Actually, I'd recommend you simply create a No Shoutbox group, and use the Deny permissions in SP 2.3.4 RC1 (a final should be out soon if you aren't comfortable with RC versions) to block the shoutbox from those you don't want to see it.

You can do it the way you say, but since everyone is a member of at least one of your two post groups, they'll be able to see the shoutbox regardless.

That would be an ideal solution, but I've had this problem for much longer than 2.3.4 RC1 has been public, and there still isn't a definitive timeline for when the final will be released.  Until that happens I'd like to find a solution for 2.3.3.

There should be a certain criteria that decides when a member should not see the shoutbox. And I still don't see what it is in your case.

The criteria that determines when a member should NOT see the shoutbox is an abuse of the privilage, as determined by my moderators.  As Eliana stated, an ideal solution would be to have a "no shoutbox" group with "deny" permissions that can be added to the member when the moderators have decided that their shoutbox privilage should be revoked, but this is not an option in 2.3.3.  So what I have attempted to do is give shoutbox permissions to only a select couple of membergroups, which are assigned to all members, and if the shoutbox privilage is determined to necessitate a revocation, then that group would be removed from the member in question.

Unfortunately, since the way my forum works, it is necessary to have the two post based membergroups setup as they are.

Is it possible to automatically assign someone to a non-post based membergroup upon registration, while at the same time utilizing the two post based membergroups as their primary groups?

My thinking is this, upon registration a new member automatically becomes a member of the "unclassified" group as their primary group, and the "shoutbox" group as an additional group.  When they make their first post they move from "unclassified" to "new arrival" as primary, and remain in the "shoutbox" group as an additional group.  I would then remove the two post based groups from the shoutbox and shoutbox block permissions, leaving only one membergroup with permission to see the shoutbox, the "shoutbox" group.  In doing so, this would eliminate the problem of post based groups having permissions for the shoutbox, in which case I could then remove the "shoutbox" group from a member who has lost their privilage to use the shoutbox.

Because of the number of members and new registrants on my forum, it would be preferable if this could be done automatically.  If not, then I could institute a new policy on my forum for my admins that they would need to monitor all new registrants, leave shoutbox permissions for the "unclassified" group and the "shoutbox" group, but remove it from the "new arrival" group.  My admins would then have to be diligent to assign all new members to the "shoutbox" group so that when the new members make their first post and are removed from "unclassified" and moved into "new arrival" they will still have access to the shoutbox due to the "shoutbox" group.

This would add a lot of work to my admins, but I believe would be doable if an automatic solution is not possible.

[Eliana Tamerin]

There's this: http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1804

Depending on the depth of code changes, I would imagine it would still work with SMF 2 RC5 or even 2.0.1.

Otherwise, as I said, 2.3.4 final should be out soon. You might be better off waiting a bit for that than implementing a workaround solution like this.

[[SiNaN]]

I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you want with the new permission system in 2.3.4 and as Eliana said, it'll be released very soon. I would suggest waiting too.